Episode 15 - Religion at Work: Moving from Passive Tolerance to Active Inclusion with Rev. Mark Fowler
Religion is the diversity dimension most leaders avoid. Not because they're hostile to it, but because they feel unprepared and afraid to get it wrong. Reverend Mark Fowler, CEO of the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding, argues that the solution isn't more policy or more training. Rather, it's all about better hospitality: that same instinct that makes someone a thoughtful host at a dinner party? Apply that to how you run your team.
Why is religion still a taboo topic in most workplaces?
This week we’re bringing you a scorching hot topic: religion at work. Almost everyone we told about this episode topic visibly cringed – no one wants to talk about it, much less engage with it. So they default to silence and call it neutrality. It's the workplace equivalent of “not seeing color” – well-intentioned, though largely fictional, and not particularly useful to anyone.
Reverend Mark Fowler, CEO of the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding, has spent nearly two decades making the case that silence isn't neutral – rather, it's a choice with measurable costs. When organizations treat religion as a liability to manage rather than a dimension of their people to understand, they create friction that shows up everywhere: in who feels able to ask for time off, in who stays, and in how much of themselves people are willing to bring to their work.
The scale of what's being ignored is striking. Approximately 75% of the global population identifies with a religious or spiritual tradition. And yet Tanenbaum's survey of American workers found that only about 22% report discussing religion at work on even a weekly basis — not because their religion isn't present, but because the culture signals that it shouldn't be.
"I would love to suspend the conversation about whether or not people are comfortable talking about religion at work and really start getting to the work of dealing with the reality of your workforce, your workplace, and your marketplace."
– Reverend Mark Fowler, CEO, Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding
Most leaders aren't scared of religion at work. They're just unskilled at it.
"Are you really afraid? Is your life in danger? Or are you just uncomfortable and unprepared?"
– Reverend Mark Fowler
What's the difference between religious tolerance and religious hospitality?
The distinction at the center of Fowler's entire framework is a bold one. Tolerance is passive. It says: I won't make this harder for you than it needs to be. Whereas hospitality is active. It says: I've thought about what you might need before you had to ask. One creates a bare minimum. The other creates belonging. Think of it this way: tolerance is remembering a colleague's name. Hospitality is remembering how they take their coffee.
The gap between the two shows up most clearly in what Fowler calls default Christianity: the invisible architecture of American professional life that was built around one tradition's calendar, one tradition's holidays, one tradition's dietary norms. If you're Christian, you don't have to ask for Christmas off or explain what Good Friday is. Your accommodations are already built in. But if you observe Eid, Diwali, or Yom Kippur, you may have to request time off, explain yourself, and hope the answer is yes.
"We're not giving people special treatment. People are trying to get approval for time that they've already worked for."
– Reverend Mark Fowler
The business case for inclusive hospitality is just as compelling as the ethical one. Roughly three out of four of all of your customers, clients, and prospective employees hold a faith identity. The organizations that build competency around religious difference don't just create better workplaces, they can access more of the market. For instance, a prayer space and a Mecca-facing map on a long-haul Turkish Airlines flight doesn’t just serve Muslim passengers. It serves everyone who needs a quiet space, and it potentially creates an invaluable loyalty to the brand. It’s about considering the needs of all when making plans for the company.
"Would you ask people to [take a meeting] on Christmas Day? There are 364 other days in this calendar year. I'm sure we can find one that's less intrusive to more people."
– Reverend Mark Fowler
How do you handle religious differences you don't fully understand?
The fear of getting it wrong is real. Rev. Mark says the answer isn't caution. It's accountability paired with curiosity.
Tanenbaum's data on where religious inclusion actually breaks down is clarifying. The two highest-reported instances of religious non-accommodation in the workplace are time off requests and food availability at required meetings. Neither requires a policy overhaul. Both are entirely solvable with a modest amount of forethought.
Rev. Mark offers three practical principles from Tanenbaum's competencies for respectful communication:
Avoid stereotypes — which starts with acknowledging that everyone uses them, including you.
Manage behavior, not beliefs.
"We all still have the right to believe exactly what we want to believe. Your behavior matters. Simply because you believe in something is not a free pass to abuse people."
– Reverend Mark Fowler
Acknowledge and apologize when you get it wrong, and do it properly. Not as a deescalation tactic, but as a genuine repair. Acknowledge what happened, apologize directly, ask what it would take to make it right, and recommit your future behavior. The relationship may not be restored immediately, and it will need to be tended to.
There’s also the legal dimension. Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, religious discrimination in hiring and in the workplace has been illegal since 1964. That means denying a reasonable religious accommodation isn't a cultural blind spot – it's a legal exposure. The employees asking for it aren't asking for favors, they are simply expecting to exercise their protected rights.
What to do this week:
Before your next major team event, all-hands, or offsite, do two things:
Cross-reference the date against a multi-faith religious calendar (Google Calendar has this built in; it takes about ninety seconds to check a calendar – but considerably longer to rebuild trust with an employee who had to go to the all-hands during Rosh Hashanah.)
If the date conflicts with a significant observance, move it.
Examine the food/catering offerings: does it require anyone to explain their dietary needs out loud in order to participate? If so, adjust it before the event.
These are not large investments. They are the hospitality moves that signal, before a single policy is written, that this is a place where people can show up as they are.
For a practical primer on navigating religious differences across traditions and lifecycle events, check out How to Be a Perfect Stranger.
Related Episodes
– Meditation for Busy Leaders with Vedic expert Michael Miller
– Lead Like a Learner with Helen Tupper
– Using Community Leadership to Grow Business with Sachin Shivaram
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Full Transcript
Read the full transcript
Rev Mark Fowler: Manage your behavior and not other people's beliefs. Their beliefs belong to them.
Ben: Welcome to The Lift, the show about leadership, growth, and getting what we want. I'm your host, Ben Brooks. For over a decade, I've worked with CEOs, their executive teams, HR departments, and entrepreneurs to identify what drives their success and what holds them back. And now I'm excited to share those insights with you. On The Lift, we pull up to see the bigger picture from accomplished leaders who know how to get things done in a rapidly changing world. We've got all of that and a lot more coming up next on The Lift. Hey everyone. I'm excited about today's episode because it tackles a topic that is still pretty taboo in most workplaces. In fact, as I've been sharing about this episode with some of my friends and colleagues, many have grimaced or snarled or even rolled their eyes, which tells me we're on the right track. It's a topic that I have seldom ever seen discussed in a leadership development context, which is what The Lift is all about. Leaders often feel comfortable talking about performance, strategy, and culture, and increasingly maybe even mental health, but one topic that still makes leaders uneasy: religion. Today's guest believes that leadership is incomplete if it ignores the spiritual and religious identities of the people we work with. Reverend Mark Fowler is the director of programs at the Tanenbaum Center for Interreligious Understanding. He brings a unique lens to this conversation. He's both an ordained minister and also a conflict resolution specialist. Mark has spent years helping organizations navigate complex cultural tensions, and today we're talking about the workplace taboo about religion and how leaders can move from passive tolerance to active respect. So let's get into it. Reverend Mark Fowler, welcome to The Lift.
Rev Mark Fowler: Thank you so much, Ben. It's a pleasure to be here.
Ben: So, first question, out of the gate, what do you think the best religion is? Just kidding.
Rev Mark Fowler: Oh my goodness. The one that the people believe in the most. How about that?
Ben: Sure. The one that works for them, right?
Rev Mark Fowler: The one that works for them.
Ben: In terms of your upbringing and around religion and faith, tell us a little bit about that and what shaped your formative years, from the family you were born in or the community you were a part of.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yeah, so I'm a native New Yorker. The early part of my life was spent in Harlem, where my grandparents lived, and in the South Bronx. We went to a Presbyterian church, Rendall Memorial Presbyterian Church in Harlem. My grandfather at one point was a trustee, and my grandmother was a member of a group called The Ever Ready Girls. And what they did was sell food to raise money for the church, in addition to a lot of other things. And you know, the experience at that point was much more cultural than it was theological. Because as a child, my experience was much more being with other children, being with the adults, participating in programming, all of those kinds of things. So it was far more social. And then I went to a Catholic junior high school in our neighborhood in the South Bronx where I lived. And I remember I entered the school at seventh grade, and in seventh grade, students are preparing for confirmation, and I remember coming home and telling my mother, oh, we're getting ready for confirmation. She's like, yeah, you're not getting confirmed. Like, that's not happening. She didn't send me to the school for religious instruction. She sent me to the school because it was local, and a Catholic school education was the closest thing to private education that we could get.
Ben: And why did she not want you to get confirmed?
Rev Mark Fowler: She was not changing her religious affiliation and didn't see any reason for me to change mine.
Ben: And you're an interfaith, interspiritual minister?
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes.
Ben: Which religion is that?
Rev Mark Fowler: Ah, so interspirituality — let me start. There is an emerging idea in theology, and if you will, it's a bit of an evolution of the way in which we think about affiliation. So from the perspective of being an interfaith minister, I am a graduate of One Spirit Interfaith Seminary, and it was a two-year program. And so there is an immersion in the first year across the world's traditions, including every month practicing a different tradition. So taking on a practice in your life, learning about the history of the tradition. The second year is really much more around ritual and practice. How are we of sacred service to people from a variety of perspectives? So if you will, interspirituality considers the condition in life where we all recognize what we believe, and that just our beliefs are insufficient to taking care of one another. That we actually use what we believe not to provide charity, but if you will, to actually just be of service in the way you would be of service to someone in your own tradition, like inside that lane, if you will.
Ben: To give people some distinction here, I wanted to kind of think about faith versus religion versus spirituality. I hear people sometimes use these very interchangeably. It feels like we use religion the least in the workplace, maybe faith a little bit more, and spirituality seems to be kind of a more inclusive term. Are these all interchangeable? Are these different? How should people that are curious kind of get these distinctions between those?
Rev Mark Fowler: I think it's important to recognize that we all hold these words and hold these terms differently and have different experiences with what the words mean to us individually. But what I would say is that when we talk about religion, we are generally referring to the theological constructs that people understand, the ways that they believe, the idea of some kind of deity or higher power that they are connected to. When we talk about faith, first thing about faith is that faith is not a concept that is present in every tradition.
Ben: Interesting.
Rev Mark Fowler: So if you think about faith as a practice, as a verb rather than a noun, then faith is, you know, believing something that you have no physical evidence for, but a faith as a noun can be used to describe a way of believing. Spirituality, I like to think about as the practice of either of those. What does someone do in their daily life, in their lived experience, that is a reflection of, or an expression of, the faith they say that they have or belong to, or the religion that they say they believe in. And I just wanna make room as well for the experience of the unaffiliated population, you know, kind of made very present by the studies in the Pew religion research around people who are unaffiliated from tradition. So those are people who identify as atheist or agnostic — and the largest percentage of them are people who identify themselves as unaffiliated. They have beliefs, they have practices, but they do not consider themselves an adherent or a member of a particular tradition.
Ben: We are in a mind meld, Reverend Fowler, because that was the next question, was around atheism, agnosticism. And I believe some of the Pew research and others that I had reviewed talked about — "or something else" was a category used in some of the instruments and surveys. And so atheist versus agnostic versus unaffiliated or something else — what's the difference between those?
Rev Mark Fowler: I've always understood the idea of atheism is that you actually do not necessarily believe in the idea of a supreme power, a higher power, a God, or deities. Agnosticism has more to do with the questioning of these ideas. So it's not a kind of flat "I don't believe." It's kind of like, I have very serious questions. And I think if people look through their own life experience, they will notice that there may be moments where they are both atheist and/or agnostic, even within their own faith tradition and journey. And the unaffiliated population I think is probably the most diverse, and there is the most for us to learn. Because there is that moment where there is a declaration of who I am or who I am not. And I think that for people who identify as unaffiliated, it is a declaration, but it's also a fine-tuning of how they think about themselves in this broad tapestry called religion and faith and spirituality — that maybe some of those monikers and more likely those experiences do not ascribe to the way in which I see my daily life going.
Ben: I wanted to bring in your experience in the New York City public school system. You had a pretty seminal moment with a student that you, you know, really held onto, so I'd love for you to bring that story in.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes. So I was a teacher and also the coordinator of student affairs at the Brooklyn Comprehensive Night High School, and the story that you are talking about was actually not something that I was able to actually piece together until I had been working at Tanenbaum for a few years. I remember having a student who came to me at one point and said that he needed to take a test later, and I was not a teacher, even in the night high school program, who, you know, kind of did deals on tests.
Ben: Do you wanna structure rigor?
Rev Mark Fowler: Yeah. And he didn't explain why. And then I was just kinda like, I'm sorry, I don't, you know, give tests differently for anybody. Everybody takes a test at the same time. And he eventually made up the work. He did not take that test. It was only until years later that I realized that likely he was fasting for Ramadan and probably needed to break fast and wanted to be able to take the test when he was at his best. I just remember in reflection that, you know, in all of my training to become a teacher, in all of the professional development that I had done, I had never been introduced to the ideas of the needs of students and/or faculty of fasting months, any kind of religious or spiritual days off. It was kind of like the Jewish High Holy Days and Christmas. Those were the only religious holidays, and we really didn't have to know a lot about them, except we didn't have to teach that day and we didn't have to move our cars. Those were like the only things that we didn't have to do, and it wasn't necessarily a learning moment. I always think about that moment, and that with just a little education and also not putting the onus on the student — because he never said, and he never asked for, nor was it common parlance as far as I knew to ask for, religious accommodations in school. I don't remember any students ever asking for a space to pray, and I'm sure there were some who needed that, and they probably went in a stairwell and didn't wanna bother anyone. So I think that, you know, when we talk about building a world that respects religious difference, we're also trying to, you know, raise the profile and have people understand that it is often the experience of religious minorities to not cause a ruckus and not draw attention to themselves. This has certainly been one of my experiences being at Tanenbaum for as long as I have — of understanding, even if you are not a practicing Christian and you live in the United States or in the Americas, there is access to a kind of privilege that you have that other people do not.
Ben: What's that look like?
Rev Mark Fowler: It looks like not having to ask for accommodations because they're already built in. Not having to wonder, if you go and ask for Good Friday off, if there's gonna be — if someone's gonna ask you, well, tell me more about Good Friday, and what is that? In workplaces, that looks like thinking that you can question someone about time off that they're asking for, and needing more information to grant them time off that they've worked for. Like, we're not giving people special treatment. People are trying to get approval for time that they've already worked for.
Ben: There's that saying, don't talk about religion or politics — at work, at a dinner party, et cetera. And so we've been conditioned, I think. We don't talk about it at work. That's the default as well, I think, right? In many workplaces, that we just don't talk about religion because that seems dicey. It's not even a part of the DEI conversation typically, that religion is even a factor. Has that been your experience?
Rev Mark Fowler: We did a survey on the experiences of the American worker and religious bias some years ago, and I wanna say about 22% of people reported that they speak about religion at work on at least a weekly basis. And I think the distinction that has happened over time is that the moniker about not talking about work, I think, had more to do with not talking about yourself at work, about religion — not necessarily not talking about religion. And just to kind of slice this a little thinner, people always talk about religion at work, but they talk about it like this, like behind their hand, and in quiet corners and over lunch. And even — depending on the industry that you're in, if you are doing retail in any way, you are talking about religion because there's money to be made. There are things to be sold to those people. If you're in finance and, you know, you happen to be involved in securities or bonds, then you are looking for ways to actually create bonds that actually address people's religious and spiritual traditions so that they can invest in a way that is Sharia compliant, for instance. People have been doing that for years. And you know, in terms of the conversation making it into DEI spaces, I think it's always been there. But remember, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion today, we're often kind of wiping away its history that started with affirmative action for all people. And that history also included the recognition of religious identity as a protected class, meaning that before 1964 in the United States, it was legal in most places to discriminate against people and not hire someone because they were Jewish, or not hire someone because they were —
Ben: Buddhist or Muslim or, yeah.
Rev Mark Fowler: Or because they were a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that they were not Protestant in the same way, or Catholic in the same way — discriminated against Catholics. So I think we have to kind of expand the eclipse of time when we're talking about the corporate sector's willingness and ability and some of the ways in which they've addressed religion over time.
Ben: For those of you that are listening — Reverend Fowler, you're Black.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes.
Ben: And you're also LGBTQ?
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes. Well, I'm not all of those. I'm just gay.
Ben: Just gay. Okay. So yes, we identify you however. So I'm gay as well.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes. But a member of the community. Yes.
Ben: I think that amongst LGBTQ people, you know, faith and religion is often this thing that has been painful. People have been through conversion therapy or been thrown outta homes and things like that.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes.
Ben: But yeah, here you're at the intersection of being Black, where on the social and community part, the church is so critical as a form of infrastructure, social infrastructure. You know, you're LGBTQ, right? You're also a reverend. How do you make sense of that for yourself? 'Cause there's the broader theoretical part, right? But I'm just curious about Mark.
Rev Mark Fowler: I mean, there are a couple of pieces to this. So in talking about my own religious and spiritual journey, we kind of stopped at junior high school. So in high school — the larger part of the time of high school — we were unchurched for a minute. My mother stopped attending the church that we had grown up in, that I had grown up in, been baptized in, and so there was kind of like a void of a couple of years where we were not a part necessarily of an active religious or spiritual community. And then I went to college and started singing with the gospel choir, and had a new experience of this indwelling experience of God, this indwelling experience of spirit. And that would continue when I graduated and joined the church that my mother joined while I was in college, which is the Community Protestant Church of the Bronx. Then I was a member for many years of Unity Fellowship of Christ Church, which started in Los Angeles. It started out as an AIDS ministry and then developed into a social justice ministry, and it was primarily attracting LGBTQ+ people of color and allies. But it was church, if you will, in the Baptist Black tradition. And there were a lot of different iterations of it. There were a lot of different ways in the churches that would form around the country. They all had their own kind of unique centering, if you will, but there was this prevailing — both thought and education — that I am whole, complete, and perfect as I am, and that there is nothing wrong or missing in me. And so all of the experiences I would say of my life have brought me to a place, or brought me to a place where I came in contact with that education, where, as the pastor of the church used to say, they can't crown him until I get there, and that the ground at the bottom of the cross is flat, with room for everyone. So I was fortunate to have been in the presence of both spiritual communities and religious educational opportunities like that, which I know everyone did not have.
Ben: "They can't crown him until I get there." What's that mean?
Rev Mark Fowler: That means that at the time that Christ comes, before they crown him as king, that crown can't be placed on his head until I'm there.
Ben: Reverend Fowler, part of the reason that we wanted to bring you on this podcast is, I think, for executives and, you know, managers, et cetera — there's a lot of people, I think, who are quite, you know, inclusive and tolerant and accepting, but it's sort of unsafe for a lot of folks to even bring up faith or religion. Let me just be silent, because that's the safest thing to do. And yet I have found it's so much more powerful to kind of acknowledge and create space, 'cause the people that are religious or faith or spiritual feel so respected and seen. There's a big upside. What would you sort of describe as sort of the upside of bringing that sort of inclusion around this topic into the workplace?
Rev Mark Fowler: I think what we've seen at Tanenbaum is that the upside, one, is that people get an opportunity to really assess and consider what is the experience that people are having that interrupts their ability to do their best work. If I have to come in and worry about asking for time off, or have to worry about going to a meeting where — it's an all-day offsite and there's no food that I can eat — if I have to worry about not being able to be promoted because a part of my evaluation is the appearance of acknowledging holidays and birthdays, and that's not something I can do — from a workforce perspective, the upside is that you are creating an environment where people know that they can succeed, and when people know that they can succeed, they can do their best work. If people believe that they are limited, then soon enough they will leave, and they will look for a place where there may be some limits, but they're not these limits. So that's one part. I think the other thing that's really critical in terms of an upside to including religion is thinking about, as we do, the workplace, the workforce, and the marketplace. That we are a rapidly growing, globally shifting community of people of all beliefs, and people who do not believe in anything or are not particularly affiliated to anything. And so that means that markets are going to change, that industries will change. The ways in which that we attend to the needs from all industry sectors is always changing. It's always evolving. The degree to which we can educate and make people competent — we're not talking about expert, but make people competent and comfortable in addressing the reality of almost 80% of the global world's population — then that means that we have more and better conversations to have, more and better creativity, and more and better ways to actually secure our market share.
Ben: And the 80% is people that acknowledge that they have a faith or belief or religion. Is that what you mean by 80%?
Rev Mark Fowler: Yeah, I think it is probably closer to like 75 now.
Ben: That seems like a big majority.
Rev Mark Fowler: It's a good size.
Ben: I remember five or six years ago I was flying to Turkey, and I flew Turkish Airlines. I'm a Star Alliance guy, but on the in-flight entertainment, the map showed the direction of Mecca. And I thought, what a thoughtful gesture. And then I went to the back of the plane — and you think Manhattan real estate is expensive, right? You know, a Dreamliner or an A350 is way more expensive real estate than New York City. And they had an entire area without seats, and it had a rug for people to pray. And it had the monitor that pointed to Mecca, a large monitor in front of it, so people could practice the Islamic tradition in flight. And I thought, from a market perspective, if I was Muslim, this would be my airline —
Rev Mark Fowler: Of course.
Ben: Because it's like they get it, and the food was all sorted. You know, there's a ton of dropdowns when you checked in and the kind of meals you'd need. And so they get that 75 or 80%, and they are absolutely the airline that sort of gets it and understands. And at the same time, me being a person who is not Muslim, I didn't feel any pressure or obligation or anything about it. It was just like, this is so great.
Rev Mark Fowler: If anything, you benefited from some of those things.
Ben: Tell me more.
Rev Mark Fowler: If you consider the menu, for instance, and all of the choices, and not necessarily being relegated to "here's your meal," but "here are all of the things that you can have."
Ben: And I think more choice for everyone, right?
Rev Mark Fowler: And even the prayer space — like, after salat prayers are done, that space is still available to anybody on the plane who is not necessarily Muslim, but needs a moment of reflection for themselves.
Ben: When I started to meditate — and we've had a meditation expert, Michael Miller, on this show — I really was a little precious early on. I had to be in a really quiet space. And I've got more training and got beyond that. But I was delighted and surprised at airports to know that there's a quiet space. It's the faith space at almost every major airport. Beautiful, clean, quiet. It was like your own private lounge. And I could, you know, have my own meditation practice, and I wasn't there to, you know, be a part of a religion, but it was still a space that I could use. Then I think the other argument around this sort of economic self-interest of, why would you want a headwind for your workers? Why would you want it to be harder for them to produce results for your organization? And to take up that mindshare. But you've been involved with the Anti-Defamation League — you know, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia and other religious bias is a major, you know, source of hate crimes in this country, and bias. So I can also understand from an individual perspective why you wouldn't necessarily want to advocate, why you do need to take that low road. Is that part of the safety of some religious minorities and why they don't advocate for some of these things?
Rev Mark Fowler: Well, I think that they do, and I also think that there's a distinction that we want to be critical about in terms of: are there places that are actually denying people these benefits? 'Cause they're not benefits, they're rights. You know, if someone is at work — and that may not be a space that the company has put together, but they can go and pray and not receive any kind of negative feedback about that — if that's not happening, that's illegal. And there is a difference between someone asking for something and what is being provided. Because I do think that, going back to the question of default Christianity, there is a lack of understanding of, at least in the United States, Title VI, the protections against religious discrimination in someone's hiring and in their work. Most people don't know that. I didn't know that before I started working at Tanenbaum. Like, I had no idea. So the idea that people can ask for accommodations is more times than not going to come from someone who needs one. And the question of whether people are being denied accommodations is a very serious charge, because that is illegal, and that's different than the perception that I can't bring my whole self to work.
Ben: So I put together a couple things that I have heard in the workplace managers say, and I'd love to get some sort of quick takes around maybe a different way to say it, or why it might be not the best thing to say about religion or faith, if that's okay.
Rev Mark Fowler: This is the lightning round.
Ben: Lightning round on a lightning rod, you know? I've heard, "Well, I don't care what religion you are, everyone's equal."
Rev Mark Fowler: Another way to say that could be, "At our workplace, I believe we are all treated equally. Is that different for you?"
Ben: So an inquiry rather than a declaration.
Rev Mark Fowler: Correct.
Ben: I've heard, "Oh, you're Muslim. Do you have to do all that fasting?"
Rev Mark Fowler: Yeah. Again, "do you have to do all that fasting?" could be, "As I understand it, fasting is a part of your tradition. How is it for you?" Or, "I've never fasted before. Would you mind telling me a little bit about your experience fasting?"
Ben: "I didn't realize you were Jewish. You don't even look Jewish."
Rev Mark Fowler: So the shady response would be, "And how do Jews look?"
Ben: Woo.
Rev Mark Fowler: So that would be the shady response. But the response, as the CEO of Tanenbaum, is, "Have you only encountered people who are Jewish who look the same?" So there's still a little shade there, but not as much. And let me — I'm sorry, Ben, I just wanna go back and say that also: "That's a little offensive. I don't think that's what you meant. What is it you're asking me?"
Ben: So to really kind of maybe assume good intent, but clarify.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yeah.
Ben: And if you were to schedule a major all-hands conference, you know — or maybe it's a big town hall meeting that's virtual — but it's during Yom Kippur, Diwali, or something else like that. And you say, "Well, anyone that can't make it can just watch the recording."
Rev Mark Fowler: For the leader, the person who's gonna be speaking on the platform at that session, the question would be, "Would you ask people to do that on Christmas Day?" And if not, there are 364 other days in this calendar year. I'm sure that we can find a day that is less intrusive to more people. By the way, the time that people are supposed to be spending looking at the recording of this session, they are likely looking for another job.
Ben: No, that's true. And I do think that that thoughtfulness — I mean, whether it's Google Calendar, Outlook, you can include holidays, religious holidays, pretty easily. You don't have to be like, "Oh, I didn't know. And how do you keep track of this? And it changes every year." Well, guess what? That's been figured out. With 8 billion people, we have figured out that problem.
Rev Mark Fowler: And you know, when we did our survey, the two highest reported instances of non-accommodation, which is how we coded religious bias, was time off, and people going to required meetings and not being able to have food that was appropriate for them to eat if they didn't bring it.
Ben: Like, so solvable.
Rev Mark Fowler: So solvable. And — think about it this way — if you develop that muscle, then it's less fearful. You are building on what you've already done as opposed to doing something you've never done before.
Ben: One other kind of lightning rod round thing that I've heard is, "He or she's pretty Christian or pretty conservative. Let's not invite them out for drinks. They don't drink. I don't think that they want to go to this thing. Or we're gonna go to this show or dancing or something." And that there's this assumption that that's somehow respectful, to shield them from this sort of temptation, right, or things that would offend them. So what would be an alternative? 'Cause I think some people think it's thoughtful of, like, we're just not gonna invite them out so they don't have to decline.
Rev Mark Fowler: So I would say two things. One is that I would not necessarily consider this an instance of bias or discrimination as much as I would consider it an instance of poor hospitality skills at the root. To get to the specific question, there are any number of activities that you can engage in that allow full participation of your team. Even if there is a place where alcohol is being served, you can make sure that there are mocktails available and you don't have to pony up to the bar. You could actually have a room or a space that's away from the bar, or even in a location where alcohol is a possibility but not the central feature of an activity. I also think there's something to be said for what I would call infantilizing behavior, because you want to go to that bar, and so you are now going to make an excuse for why not to involve someone in something you want to do. So there's that part, and it could be, "Where could we have something where you would not be invited?"
Ben: And it's such a great point, because when I was in the LGBT employee resource group space — I co-founded a group after a pretty bad experience in 2007. We were kind of somewhat early-ish days on the corporate side of that, and one of our big challenges with socializing and gathering in terms of these, you know, sort of events is we would not have nearly enough women. And definitely not allies. Well, guess where the events were taking place? Gay bars. Dark, sticky gay bars, and women didn't feel safe. Allies didn't want — you know, "what are you doing walking into a gay bar," and all these other different things. We started catering them in our own offices, and attendance skyrocketed, right? It was more convenient. It was easier. Executives loved coming down. So just considering the place — it wasn't that we didn't have alcohol, it was just merely thinking of it from a hospitality perspective. I love it. My company PILOT, we have an operating principle called Play the Host. And so I do think that, you know, part of being a good manager or executive is thinking in that host mindset.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yes, absolutely. I agree.
Ben: Well, Reverend Fowler, I'd like to ask, what's sticky, you know, from this conversation? What are you chewing on, or what kind of came up for you, if you were to reflect a little bit about what we've just discussed over the last hour?
Rev Mark Fowler: I mean, I've been at Tanenbaum — this fall will be 19 years. I've been serving as CEO for almost six years. And the thing that's sticky is that in some instances, we are having the same conversations now that we were having when I started here. And I think that that's part of the evolution of the conversation. I don't think that religion is a topic that is completely on the outside. I think people think about it, but I think that they don't know what to do and find themselves ill prepared, in the same way that if someone from a different tradition moved into their neighborhood, they might not know how to be hospitable. So I would love to suspend the conversation about whether or not people are comfortable with talking about religion at work, and really start getting to the work of dealing with the reality of your workforce and your workplace and your marketplace, and living the values of your own company and the things that you want for your people, but also for your clients and customers. I think, at this point, I'm starting to feel like it's just a distraction to talk about why I am afraid. And just, you know, ask people to do a little bit of discerning — like, are you really afraid? Like, is your life in danger, or are you just uncomfortable and unprepared? So maybe giving people a new lexicon to talk about their journey and their experience around religion. Because the other side of this are the assertions that, you know, we are doing really well — is kind of like, if I poll your workforce, will they say the same thing?
Ben: Let's see if everyone's on the same page about that.
Rev Mark Fowler: Let's see if everybody's on the same page about that.
Ben: What's sticky for me, Mark, is just this idea of hospitality being an inspiration for inclusion around religion, faith, and spirituality. Because I think it's really inspiring and aspirational. Be a good host. And it feels nice to be hosted. And it feels like such an interesting way to sort of unlock creativity and delight and warmth around this otherwise maybe touchy subject, and to move from that fear to that excitement, and that love and that care that you would show a neighbor or someone that you went to school with, or someone that you may have served with in the armed services or something else.
Rev Mark Fowler: Yeah, absolutely. There's a great book called How to Be a Perfect Stranger, and it gives guidance across a variety of traditions and across a variety of lifecycle events. I think that, there again, there are ways for us to educate ourselves without having to go get a PhD in theological studies from the university. Like, we could bring it down to a book.
Ben: Reverend Fowler, as we wrap up today, I would love if you could provide both, you know, practical ideas and a boost of inspiration and possibility for people listening to this podcast that wanna live in the how, that wanna, you know, take it up a notch in terms of their level of hospitality and inclusion from people from all walks of life and beliefs. Hit it.
Rev Mark Fowler: I would say — I mentioned earlier, we have these competencies for respectful communications, so I wanna just talk about a couple of them. One of them is to avoid stereotypes, and the thing about avoiding stereotypes is acknowledging that you use them, acknowledging that we are all subject to them. No one is, you know, absent of creating stereotypes or using stereotypes. So avoiding them starts with recognizing that we are given by them. The other is to manage behavior and not beliefs. We all still have the right to believe exactly what we want to believe, and no one has the right to tell us that we cannot or should not believe in whatever it is that we wanna believe. And your behavior matters. You are accountable and responsible for the way in which you interact with your colleagues, with clients, with customers, regardless of what you believe. Simply because you believe in something is not a free pass to abuse people. So manage your behavior and not other people's beliefs. Their beliefs belong to them. And the last thing that I'll say is that one of our competencies for respectful communication is to acknowledge and apologize for mistakes made. We do this work every day, and there are days where we get it wrong, where we say something or do something that is offensive to someone, and it was not intended to be offensive to someone, but what our role is in that moment is to acknowledge that we've done something wrong, to apologize for it. And simply because you acknowledge it and apologize for it does not mean that that relationship will be restored immediately. It is now going to have to be tended to, and that is the kind of work, regardless of religious or spiritual affiliation — that's what human beings of good conscience do.
Ben: Well said. I learned a long time ago about the four-part apology, which is exactly what you're talking about. You need to acknowledge what happened. Apologize — "I am sorry. I apologize." That exact language. To your point around repair, ask them what it would take to make it right. And then recommit your behavior in the future. Incredibly underused thing in the workplace. We get into all sorts of things around shame and blame and danger and all these things. Unbelievably powerful.
Rev Mark Fowler: Absolutely.
Ben: To when you legitimately don't do it as a way to just deescalate someone when you don't feel it, and it's inauthentic. But when there is that and you step in it, clean it off your shoe.
Rev Mark Fowler: That's right.
Ben: Reverend Fowler, thank you for joining The Lift.
Rev Mark Fowler: Thank you so much, Ben. It's been a pleasure.
Ben: All right, everyone. Let's turn today's episode into action. Here are key takeaways from Reverend Fowler. First, focus on behavior, not beliefs. You don't have to agree with someone to treat them with respect. Second, think like a host. Small, intentional choices, like being thoughtful with food and catering or scheduling, can make a big difference in helping people feel included. And remember, you don't have to get it perfect. You just have to be willing to notice and learn. And if you do get it wrong, own it and fix it. Because at the end of the day, inclusion isn't about having all the answers. It's about creating a space where people can show up as they are and do their best work, which starts with you as leaders, signaling your interest and support of them and their beliefs. And if you're in any situation and you're unsure who the host is, step up. It's you, buddy. And trust me, people will adore you for it. Thanks for joining me this week on The Lift. For more info on what you heard in today's episode, visit our show notes. You can find out more about the show at theliftpod.com. If listening to The Lift today was a good use of your time, please share it with a colleague, a friend — I don't know — your ex, your mother, anyone. Don't let good advice die with you. And for those of you who like to earn a little bit of extra credit, leave a comment on Spotify. We'd love to hear from you. The Lift is produced and edited by the team at editaudio. This episode was produced by Victoria Marin and edited by Ali. Our production manager is Kathleen Speckert. Our executive producer is Steph Colbourn. A special thanks to Korey Rich and Beth Gatsik. We are in a mind meld, Reverend Fowler.
